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Trans men dating gay men


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#1 Bones

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Posted 23 May 2010 - 11:27 AM

So. I've had A LOT of rejection from the gay community. A gay guy will flirt with me, then when he finds out I'm trans, he suddenly pulls away. I mean, he'll still be friendly but it's obvious I was immediately put into the "friendbox" because he stops flirting. It really upsets me...

Where the devil do y'all find gay guys who are cool with trans men?! I mean, yes, I am pre-op... but I will never have a "real" penis so... Yeah, that's usually their problem. "Vaginas are disgusting," and "You don't have a penis."

I have a hard time "settling" with a bisexual man because I fear they see me as a woman (because they're okay with dating women) but just humor my gender identity by calling me male. :? Yeah, I know. I have trust issues. How do you verify that someone really takes you gender identity seriously? I find most people who were born with a penis (even a lot of trans women) don't take my transition very seriously. They kind of patronize it...

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#2 fredsmydog1

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Posted 23 May 2010 - 06:51 PM

dude i feel the same way. im so scared to flirt with a guy cause im sure that they would see me as a chick, and that is clearly not me..

#3 Bones

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Posted 23 May 2010 - 08:43 PM

It's tough. Even after being on hormones this long and appearing male as soon as they find out I have a VA-JAY-JAY it's a no-deal. :evil:

#4 NickAdams

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 10:28 AM

Hi,

I transitioned in 1999, and always I knew I would be a gay man. I too had concerns about how to date gay men - and about how they would react to my body.

I think it's fair to say that there is a sub-set of gay men who are extremely focused on d*ck. Their only concern is how big it is and what they can do with it. Gay men who are part of that sub-set are never going to be into trans guys. (Unless they have some kind of major epiphany...)

But there are lots and lots of gay men who are looking for something more than just a big d*ck. Those are the guys who might be open to having sex with us and/or dating us.

I met my partner in 2001. He's a gay man who'd never met an FTM before me, let alone considered dating a transgender man. Today is the 9th anniversary of our first date.

He had a little bit of a learning curve at first. He had some (momentary) concerns that the "gay police" might take away his "gay card" because he was dating me. But he's a smart guy and he got over that very quickly. He also had (momentary) concerns about how to give me pleasure, but again, he's a smart guy and figured that out quickly too.

He definitely sees me as a guy. Just a guy with a different history and a different body then other guys he's dated. And, I have to say, that having a gay guy find me attractive is validating to my masculinity. Because I know that most gay men don't have a lot of bandwidth in that regard. They are attracted to men. Period.

And after 9 years, (heck after a few months), my being trans is not really an issue in our relationship. We deal with all the issues that other couples deal with. I'm an introvert, he's an extrovert. He's a morning person -- I'm not. We have different approaches to problem-solving that requires us to collaborate and compromise. We've each taken turns annoying the other person with snoring. All of those things require work to keep the relationship going, but they have nothing to do with me being trans.

So, I don't have a lot of "how-to" advice on how to date gay men. There may be other guys on the forum who are more experienced in the bar scene or the online dating scene. But I can tell you that it's possible to have a long-term relationship with a gay man, to live in the world as a gay male couple. Which I really love, and am grateful for every day.

Best,
Nick

#5 Bones

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 12:55 PM

I just get so sick to my stomach. Every time a gay man rejects me, it feels like my masculinity is being absolutely crushed and that I really am "just a woman." Even after transitioning and being on hormones for 15 months.

#6 NickAdams

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Posted 26 May 2010 - 05:54 PM

Hi,

I hear your frustration. I would just add a couple of thoughts...

1) I had been on a full-dose of T for two years before I met my partner. And even then, I looked more like a 21-year-old college student than a 37-year-old man. So it does take a while before the hormones make us look really, really male. And (to generalize a bit) most gay men are attracted to men who, well....look like men.

2) Having been around gay men all my life (well before I transitioned), I know that rejection and "finding the right guy" is incredibly difficult for non-trans gay men too. If you've ever looked at a gay magazine or gay porn, you know that there is a body "ideal" perpetuated by that media. And 99% of gay men don't fit that ideal, so it can be very difficult on their self-confidence and psyche too.

I've noticed that trans guys sometimes explore sub-cultures within the gay male community that reject that one-dimensional ideal of what's "hot." The leather community, the bear community and the radical fairy community can be more open and accepting of guys who are different.

Of course, as in all things, your mileage may vary, but that's been my observation and experience.

Best,
Nick

#7 Bones

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Posted 26 May 2010 - 06:23 PM

Yeah. I know it'll take me even longer to look like a man (and not just a boy) because my dose is so low and was so low. I have not been on a full dose for longer than a month. I lost my job and my insurance and can't get more testosterone.

Yeah. I personally am not hunting for a "model" gay man. I really would want to be with an average guy. But the more I think the more I realize I am more into women... They just mix with me better. But I want gay men to hit on me, to like me, to accept me as a man. That is important to me.

#8 Kuuipo420

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 05:04 AM

You are a female to male looking for a male who doesn't know or care if you are biologically a female, so basically you want to be in a gay relationship with another male . I'm not gay or trans but if I was looking for a decent guy I would not go looking in a bar or club. Try a dating site online and just be honest with them. Clubs and bars are where a lot of players hang out. I wouldn't go looking for anything in the clubs out here in FL. You are so young and attractive. You'll find someone give it time. Not only that but you could get hurt if someone finds out you have female parts. Not only strait guys can be dangerous but gay guys can be too. Whatever you do tell them up front before he starts buying you drinks. Me personally I would stay away from the club scene. Any drunks at a bar strait or gay can be dangerous. If you do find someone online bring back up when you go to meet them don't go alone.
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#9 Bones

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 12:42 AM

I'm not quite old enough to club where alcohol is involved (I'm 20). I might like bars when I'm allowed to go, but I don't think I'll ever use it as a dating tool. Actually, I think because so many people go there to get laid, I might hate bars. Not sure... But I'd hope I will find a partner in a respectable place. Like college, maybe. Or a theater/studio I'm working at. Or something.

I don't like to think I am in "more danger" than any other man. I mean, do we tell cisgender men to be careful at bars? That bothers me. It's like when people tell me not to go out alone. They don't say that to "real" men. :?

#10 Kuuipo420

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Posted 19 June 2010 - 07:30 AM

I'm not quite old enough to club where alcohol is involved (I'm 20). I might like bars when I'm allowed to go, but I don't think I'll ever use it as a dating tool. Actually, I think because so many people go there to get laid, I might hate bars. Not sure... But I'd hope I will find a partner in a respectable place. Like college, maybe. Or a theater/studio I'm working at. Or something.

I don't like to think I am in "more danger" than any other man. I mean, do we tell cisgender men to be careful at bars? That bothers me. It's like when people tell me not to go out alone. They don't say that to "real" men. :?

No Bones thats not what I'm trying to say, sorry if it came out like that but I go to both gay and strait bars and there is always danger to anyone at a bar (more so in the strait bars). I'm old enough to be your mom and I would never go to a club or bar alone. I'm very small and if someone was drunk and out of hand I wouldn't be able to fight them off. I weigh 95 lbs. I didnt mean any disrespect. I think you are right finding someone at school or in college would be safer.

#11 Bones

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 12:34 PM

I guess you're right. Even people I really look up to and consider "real men" never go to bars alone.

#12 redheadstud

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 08:04 PM

I am loving this conversation. You are all so supportive and I can only say bravo and thank you. I just posted here for the first time having watched the Chaz documentary. I worked for a few years at Callen-Lorde Community Health Center (the GLBT center in Mahnattan). I came to know quite a few trans-people. I also came to realize that I was feeling an intense attraction to one guy. I didn't pursue him because he was a patient, but I really wanted to. I was interested, I'm not sure if he was or not. I had been married to a woman for 7 years before I came out, and although I've never with with a woman since, I had very satisfying sexual relationships with women. I'm gay and with my partner for over 11 years now. But someone like me is out there. You will meet someone like that. Someone will come along who will be into you, and your genitalia won't be a problem for them. They will like you and want to be with you for you. Who you are. Join groups. Seek out bisexual men. Or gay men in the health/science sector. You are loved and will be loved. But first you have to love yourself completely, so I hope I have inspired you to look in the mirror, tell yourself you love you just how you are, and give yourself a big hug. I would give you a hug. Here { }! That's my hug for you!

#13 Carol

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 02:43 AM

I am very happy to have found this site and to discover that I am not singular with my feeling of rejections that I have encountered so far. Being M - F, post surgery and attracted to women has similar issues. I feel that as soon as one person finds out that I’m trans., they run, or as one person put it, “The community somewhat feels that they have enough issues and most are reluctant to get involved”. It’s terrible to feel like your odd and unaccepted. I find a certain comfort in remembering that I am being true to myself and I have more to offer someone having lived in both worlds. So here is where I now find myself; I like myself in my form but at the cost of being perpetually single. I’m hopeful that someday love will knock on my door…

#14 Jarath

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Posted 10 August 2011 - 07:37 AM

I have a question...and would love some opinions...

At the behest of my therapist I presented myself as a gay man with my friends online in games... it was to help me feel more comfortable with my transition and it did work. I feel alot more comfortable :) The problem or not...is I met a great guy...we text and chat and I'm attracted to him. I posted a picture of myself...and he's heard my voice...but he thinks I'm a gay man and I have perpetuated that idea. Now as I begin transitioning...I worry that in a year or so when he wants to try to meet if we are still "into" each other...he won't be so into me when he learns that I'm a trans man. I'm already planning on telling him before it gets close to meeting, but I want to have transitioned more. Opinions please? Do you think I'm being wrong to not tell him now with the chance of loosing his friendship? Or as my therapist says I'm just protecting myself.... I really like this guy but I'm preparing for the worst.

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#15 lisofby

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 01:39 PM

bones,=if-you-are-that-guy-in-the-sunnies-i'd-say-you-are-good-looking-and-really-male.
i-love-what- Kuuipo420-said.-i-would-add-you-are-very-young.-you-have-all-the-time-in-the-world-to-find-a-"one".-i-know-a-straight-woman-who-had-an-abusive-marriage,-who-was-very-grateful-for-the-6-yrs-of-love-she-found-at-age-70.
i-agree-with-your-therapist,-jarath.-it's-not-like-you've-promised-this-guy-grandbabies-and-kittens.
does-everybody-have-to-know-your-business?-please-be-careful-if-you-do-meet-this-person-/-give-identifying-details-just-in-case-they-are-not-what-they-seem-(and-i-don't-mean-physically).

#16 SPS

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Posted 26 November 2011 - 11:34 PM

I think it's fair to say that there is a sub-set of gay men who are extremely focused on d*ck. Their only concern is how big it is and what they can do with it. Gay men who are part of that sub-set are never going to be into trans guys.

Oh, I know that subset too well. Conveniently they tend to have other offputting qualities. (Like, oh, I dunno, being walking flaming gay stereotypes? [Why yes, I do love very butch men. Which, combined with the fact that straight guys tend to consider me a dude waaay more often than gay guys do, leads to lots of really awkward crushes on my straight male friends.]) Oh, and yeah, being shallow and superficial. Big "no" in my book.

The gay and bisexual men I've met online are more masculine and nerdy than the ones I know IRL, and are more comfortable with trans people than, say, your average club kid. (Not to mention the "OMG you're trans? I thought you were hot because you pass really well!" comments I get, even when I'm not on T yet from some of them.) But I have to admit that, between the gay men's community's obsession with ginormous meat and my female friends' crushes on me, I wish I was straight sometimes so I'd actually get laid for a change.

#17 ExGayNowQueer

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 10:04 AM

TRANS MEN SHOULD NOT DATE GAY MEN

As a recently ex-gay man who now sees the beauty of mangina, I say stop harassing others whose sefl-described sexual orientation/desire/body is not a match to own, however it is. That is disrespectful. A person gets to choose who they wish to have sexual relations with, right?

For example, (one of many I could now make), when I am sexually attracted to a straight-identifed cis-man, I gracefully accept and respect whatever his subject of attraction is--usually a cis-woman, sometimes a transwoman or anything else possible. He is not sexually into my male body or sexual organs. If I fall in love with him, that is my lack of personal wisdom.

If a gay guy's sexuality begins to expand (and this is rare) to include appreciation of female part/parts or intersexed ones, to me he is bisexual or queer and no longer gay by definition (using the current, universally-known, widespread understanding of those terms--if we mean different things when we use the same term, how on earth can we understand each other?)

If a man says he is gay, just ask him if he is totally gay (do this in private). On the Kinsey scale of homo-/hetersexuality of one to six, I have found over three decades of having been an out gay man that most gay men rate themselves around five or six, six being exclusively homosexual. With a self-identifed gay cis-man, you are most always barking up the wrong tree.

Some self-identified gay men are really bi or queer but hide that because of bi oppression amongst gay men in that community or the real problems historically encountered that cannot be merely wished away--i.e., the many bisexuals leading double lives, expecting a gay lover to be closeted within their bi life, duplicitous hiding behaviour, refusal of monogamy because "I feel incomplete as a bisexual if I am only having sex with one ses), etc.

Some heretofore gay men, like me, are fortunate enough to find more beauty in life, with their sexual appreciation and scope increasing. I would no longer describe myself as gay because I think that is no longer factual and, thusly, misleading; also, not identifying as queer feeds into the perpetuation of transphobia, in my opinion. Some men describe themselves as gay because they are 90 per cent gay (and/or don't want to make waves, so to speak); I think this is unfortunate and confuses things unnecessarily and badly, but I know many such 'gay' men still react to the term "queer" with pain, having been abused with that term as children and not yet proudly claiming or identifying with it. (Yes, this all is complex like...life, lol.)

Regarding disclosure, believe me, I know the pain of disclosure and rejection--I am HIV positive and get rejected often and regularly--for years.

Rejection is painful but I know this is an important area for folks and a deal-breaker, so to speak, for most. Since I know people feel that way, it is a lie of ommission as I see it for me to withhold that information. Otherwise, I would be hiding what I know the other wants to know in the hope that they will be so charmed and enamored of me and all their concerns and feelings would simply fall away as they fell madly in love with me. Right. As Dr. Phil would say, ("Howz that workin' for ya?")

So I waste another's time hoping I can suck them in? That is so manipulative and hardly the way to start a relationship. I know gay men who have been roped in emotionally or started to get sexual and find out they are with a transman. Not cool at all. How would you feel if someone did this to you? With my dealing with disclosure/rejection, it is much less painful to do so before I am emotionally invested, I have found.

(Obviously, I am not advocating disclosure to someone who might be violent although I do question why you would not have established, firstly, that the objection of your desire is a decent person--would you want to fall in love with anyone who wasn't? Luck of the draw? Just hope someone is good? Sadly, in my experience, if I don't make that effort, the bad eggs never simply offer to tell me what a jerk they are and ruin their chances of using me...)

Whining and pining about some group of people that is never going to be a match for you gives the trans community a bad name--and I am sad to say that it is deserved in this respect. Gay men reject me, boo hoo, THEY are SO discriminatory. Bullshit. They are simply not into you. Accept that and grow up. You can hardly ask that your sexuality be respected, whatever it is, if you do not respect the sexuality of another, in this case, that of gay men.

You knew that transitioning would mean that you would create a body that is changed from what most folks on the planet (cis-homo/hetero) wish and that you would possess what most do not want. Complaining after the fact that cis-homos/heteros aren't into you is duplicitous to me and unfair. Did you really think that cis-homos/heteros sexuality would change? Do you really think they are oppressing you by not wanting to have sex with you? If you are transwoman into transwomen, should I fairly be able to say that such women are unenlightened and oppressing me because they don't want to fuck me? I hope those stuck in such self-centred, delusory perspectives cut their losses, grow up and move on; I can't see you finding happiness with those kinds of perspectives a.k.a. Me, me, me! You really do give the trans community a bad name, and it greatly surprises me that the majority of those in the trans community who would never conduct themselves in such fashions put up with the smear on their community without saying much at all. Really? Is sexuality to be respected or not?

Things are changing, gay men are becoming queer men. Like I said, get him alone and ask him more pointed questions. "Gay" may really mean "queer" or curious/interested.

I have taken a lot of time to share my perspectives and experience because I hear the pain expressed. One cannot change what one doesn't acknowledge", and I hope what I've written helps some folks to be suitably respectful to gay men, too--at least with regard to this issue. I sadly admit that gay men are often misogynist/transphobic and unconcerned or aware about their other privileges, be they those accorded to males or whites or what-have-you.

I have often felt that in the trans community, there is a politically correct view of trans life (even though there are many trans folk who don't toe that line), and that if you disagree, there is no room for civil argument (geared to learning, sharing and growing) but, instead, one is demonized and considered an enemy because one does not hold the currently-fashionable ideas.

Because of that, I fearfully expect, now, that there will be a torrent of abuse directed toward me that is hidden under the rubrick of those having the "correct" view seeing that as giving them social permission to dump on me. Gulp.

For those who wish to take issue with the semantics I've used or posit that the definition of a "gay man" includes, say, a transman into men (of whatever stripe or sort), I would disagree and say that we have terms that work better, and confusing or conflating terms just makes for enormous confusion. In this example, I like the phrase "gay man who is trans" but there may be better descriptors, and as we all know, trans culture and terms are still evolving.

I have used terms as the are standardly understood to make various points. Trans folk do not agree with any degree of absoluteness or universal agreement what terms should be used. I have chosen to use terms in common ways for ease of argument so I am not going to get side-tracked into a semantics argument--that is not the gist of the points I am trying to make, here.




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